https://ko-fi.com/theheartofcirs
TSA Cares
May the awareness of CIRS spread far and wide, helping to change millions of lives for the better 💙
https://ko-fi.com/theheartofcirs
TSA Cares
May the awareness of CIRS spread far and wide, helping to change millions of lives for the better 💙
Welcome to the Heart of CIRS podcast. I'm your hostess, Melanie Joy Pensac, here to share heartfelt conversations with folks recovering from CIRS and with those special people serving the CIRS community. The podcast was created to help bring awareness to the physical, emotional, and mental experiences of folks navigating CIRS day to day. The world needs to know what CIRS folks go through for deeper empathy and understanding. Thank Through stories and vulnerability, we can help the world understand the winding journey of CIRS Recovery. Thank you for being here to open your mind and to open your heart. Hello and welcome everybody. I am very much looking forward to this conversation today with Laura. Laura is somebody that I have met through our CIRS support group and I've really been interested in what she's been doing in her choices regarding housing and travel and so I'm hoping that you will all very much appreciate this conversation with her today. Welcome, Laura. Great to have
Laura:you here. Hey, Melanie. Yeah. Thanks for having me excited to be on and share what I can. Awesome.
Melanie Pensak:So starting out, if you want to share just a little bit about your backstory, just a little bit about how you think CIRS came into your life, where you are in recovery now, just to give people
Laura:some perspective. Yeah, complicated backstory, as I think is probably true for most people, and yeah, for a long time felt pretty murky as far as what, what the cause of my symptoms were, and I think there's a lot of catalysts, when I really sit back and reflect on the past, 10, 20 years of my life, and I think probably there were a few things that move the needle a little bit more than others. And I think one of those things, of course, being in a toxic mold situation. and that's something that's. I think I've actually been in mold my whole life growing up in a farmhouse that was built in the 1800s and just addition upon addition, but really old bones. But I think more than, probably more than any other factor other than mold is just needing to To learn how to have a different balance in life, and there, there were some other things along the way, some illnesses from traveling abroad, coincidentally, and like Epstein Barr virus and various assaults to my system, I've, I've been diagnosed with Lyme as well, but, I think probably the two things that really pushed me over the edge was, a work life balance that wasn't working, tremendous amounts of stress, a flood, and of course that goes, goes along with mold. and, and then being in moldy environments, not just in my home, but in my workplace as well. I think there was really a double whammy with working in a really A really intense, with an intense agency, with some really intense trauma cases, usually seeing seven clients a day back to back, but while doing that, being in a building that had mold, and actually I had a, a coworker who had CIRS. I don't think she used that title at the time, but she knew that she was incredibly sick from mold. And, there were two different buildings that we were split between and she came into the building I was in and she said, Whoa, if I had to work in this building, I would have to quit within two minutes. She was incredibly sick. So I was getting it from all angles. and then I think that combined with stress just was a setup for my, my system.
Melanie Pensak:Tell us a little bit about your background and your work.
Laura:So, yeah, I've been working in mental health for a little over 10 years now. And, the last six have been as a therapist, like either in training and, but like working with clients actively or, in an agency or private practice. and yeah, I love, I love the work and I think there's, there's this dynamic that. it's really hard to get around at least moving into that line of work where you're required to work in a lot of settings that are incredibly intense. It doesn't feel like you have the luxury to, to decide. What it is that you're doing in order to care for your system. it's if I could have done a private practice and had really selective hours from the get go, I probably would have done that. and it wasn't an option. It's a really competitive field, actually, because there's so many people interested in psychology out there. So it ends up being really competitive. And so my very first job in mental health was really intense, working with Kids with behavioral issues and, some of the most extreme behavioral issues in all of Minnesota and North Dakota. And they're funneled into this system, which is where I, I, I worked and. It was really intense. Lots of violence. tons of trauma. having to do physical restraints daily. So it's that's the sort of thing that you, you don't necessarily need to take jobs like that, but there aren't that many great jobs available in the beginning in order to start resume building. Just getting out there. And so I ended up doing a lot of really intense work and it was okay. it was really stressful in my system, but it was okay. And, and then I think that just continued, it's like when you are in grad school, you need to take placements that are available. And a lot of times that's the same situation. It's really intense placements. because yeah, I think probably more seasoned therapists, are really tuned in to what works for their system and what doesn't and those sorts of agencies tend to lead to a lot of burnout. and then same goes once you graduate, it's like lots of intensity was working for community mental health center and it's private practice isn't really a great option from the get go. And so that's, that's how it turns out. And so I think it's, it's all work that I've really enjoyed, but it's all work that has been. way too much for my system in the end.
Melanie Pensak:Yeah. It's so interesting. I'm glad that you touched on that and shared all of that. It really helps us to just highlight your deep understanding of body mind work and psychosomatic work. And we have talked a little bit about our own experiences. getting diagnosed with CIRS and how the body mind message that exists out there has impacted, us in our diagnostic process. Yeah, I want to touch on that a little bit because I'm sure there are others out there that Are hearing the messaging of illness showing up through repressed emotions and body mind issues. And I was wondering, yeah, if you want to talk a little bit about that and get that part of the conversation started.
Laura:Totally. Yeah, I think just based on what I've said already, you could see how it would be really confusing and really easy to think, Okay, that, that's all quite a lot. And, it could make sense that that's everything that's going on and, and maybe, maybe I just need to really work on. My nervous system. And yeah, I had, I know this is, this is what we had talked about in a past conversation about my experience with the Gupta program and how ultimately it wasn't, it wasn't what I needed at the moment because of how strong the messaging was around stop looking. There's nothing, nothing external, that you need to fix or do. And you found your answer. It's this program. It's just this program. If your doctors told you. There's nothing wrong. There's nothing more they can do for you. Then that's it. and that was really confusing for me. And I, I think a part of me was like, okay, yeah, yeah, maybe this is all, all stress induced and there's nothing else that's. This plane into my illness and at the same time that didn't resonate completely. and I knew that there were these glaring issues, one of which being this massive black mold issue that was both at my workplace. And I think probably playing into my ability to cope with stress, and in my home and that had been true for years. and. I think I, I ultimately became really discouraged. first, first I bought into it that, okay, I, I don't need to worry about mold. They're saying it doesn't matter. They're saying it's an overreaction and a normal healthy person should be fine. But that actually didn't make sense to me on a whole different level, because we know that even for people who don't have CIRS, and so it didn't totally align, and I think there's been some different messaging or a shift in the messaging in that program since the time that I was introduced to the content, so I'm glad to hear that, but it just wasn't landing and I think it ended up actually being really unhelpful and, ended up being a barrier to my healing in a, A different way because I ended up then carrying some resent, I think, towards that messaging and so much so that I, I just shut out that part of the healing equation, for a while. that, that's just where I was at at that point in my journey that it didn't make sense to me. I felt. A lot of discomfort and resentment around that messaging, and, and then I, I, I dove too far, I think, in the other direction. and I wasn't focusing as much on, either bottom up or top down methods. and I don't think that was helpful either, but it's, it's where I, I needed to be. To be, I think I had to, I had to come around to finding balance between both worlds of okay, no, I really need to get on top of this mold situation. CIRS is, is real mold. Certain molds are incredibly toxic and I have some nervous system work to do. and both those things need to be cared for in order to heal. but yeah, it took me a while to, to really get to that point. And I, I, I think unfortunately. Some of the messaging, yeah, slowed the rate at which I, I came to a balance in that regard.
Melanie Pensak:Yeah, I appreciate you sharing all of that. I think a lot of people will be able to maybe relate to their own feelings around some of the messaging and programs and just going through the process of trying to discern what's going on. in my journey, I am a mindfulness teacher and have always had. An interest in the healing arts. I have a background as a speech and language pathologist as well and, lived in California for a really long time. involved in the wellness world in different capacities. So when you're in that world and you're not feeling well and you start going to Western physicians and nobody can find anything wrong with you, and then you start exploring the world of functional medicine, integrative medicine, and those particular practitioners that I saw were not aware of CIRS, right? And I still wasn't getting better. Then you start to think, Okay. if nobody can find anything, perhaps this really is some sort of repressed trauma or emotional issue that I just can't get to. And I love meditation. I feel like I am very much a deep diver in everything I do in life. Like I love to uncover and learn. And so I thought, okay, maybe this is the path and I need to really explore my inner world. And I did so much so that I was You know, reflecting with my meditation teachers and started to do some internal family systems work. So that psychotherapeutic approach that really helps to, connect to wounded parts of self, and. Really diving into Chinese medicine too. So I actually loved Chinese medicine and acupuncture considered even becoming an acupuncturist for a while and decided I didn't wanna go back to school for that length of time. But, exploring like what emotions are here that need expressed or repressed or, and probably went too much into that and started to put too much emphasis on that type of work. And. And so much so that I feel like I probably put a little bit of pressure on my meditation teachers and, the spiritual friends in my life. what am I not seeing? What am I not, uncovering? what do you see that's, that I'm not seeing in my life? please reflect this back to me. And. There wasn't something significant to, to bring into that picture. And it was frustrating me because I felt like, what's the answer then? And I even started doing acupuncture. There were clinics in the LA area where you could go for really cheap, like sometimes twice a week and I wasn't getting any relief and I actually wasn't responding to Chinese herbs and feeling sick and. Honestly, declining in many ways as I went through that type of work and through acupuncture, and I know now the reason was because I was developing or had CIRS at the time. It's hard to know because I don't have the blood labs or anything, right? But. That was the path that I thought was going to be the answer, and I really want to highlight this for people because if you're out there and you're having symptoms and you're doing acupuncture or you're doing some of this mind body work and not seeing results, I don't want people to go through what I went through and put the blame on themselves because that's what it turned into. I'm not seeing something. This is, a deficit in me and it wasn't, it was something external in my environment. And while I think when we're on this journey, there's so much that comes up emotionally and yes, traumas and repressed emotions can certainly arise when any difficulty comes up in life, whether it's illness or divorce or, there's. So many challenges, right? When you go through a difficulty, you see what needs to be healed. But the ultimate root of this was not that. It was a biological process and illness in the body. And My hope to impart with this podcast is that practitioners of acupuncture and psychotherapy and meditation and Dharma teachers can start to see wow, if there's somebody that's really struggling or somebody that's had a big dramatic change in their emotional regulation or quick decline in their health, like maybe there's something external to explore a
Laura:little too. Wow. Yeah. I resonate with that all so very much. I. Yeah, in some ways, I feel like you could have been telling my story. It's yeah, I've done all of the things. And actually, it was really confusing for me too, because I had done a lot of trauma work and I felt really resolved and good and whole on that level. And I, like you, too, had done a lot of parts work and I'm actually a parts work therapist too. So I'm like, Oh, I, I think there was an extra level of shame there. what. I'm a therapist. I, I work with trauma. I work with, yeah, in, in parts work and I'm, I'm doing this stuff from day to day. How, how am I missing something? How am I not healing here? And, yeah, I think at the end of the day, it does end up feeling a little bit blame the victimy and it's, it's really not helpful. And yes, I appreciate you sharing all of that because I think it's. It's really easy to get stuck in that place. And then ultimately, I think it can be, it can be a further trauma, right? Where we're stuck in this place where we feel like we're missing something. What's wrong with us? We should be, we should be able to heal and we're not. and at least for me, that was. That was really challenging on, on a psychological level in the end and, and yeah, when you have doctors telling you there's, there's nothing wrong and, and like with the Gupta program, if your doctors told you there's nothing wrong, then this is for you, right? It's, it's basically something that we need to work on. Work on via brain retraining and that's it. And, but the question is what doctor is telling you that there's nothing wrong? Do we trust those doctors? Do those doctors have all the information? that never made sense to me completely. It's yeah, I've had like Western doctors that are very traditionally trained and have a pretty narrow scope. Tell me that there's nothing wrong. and, Should that be the end all be all? And, and yeah, so it's really easy to think that it's something that we can control through willpower alone. And. and Ignore the Elephant in the Room. appreciate you sharing all that.
Melanie Pensak:Yeah, thank you so much. Transitioning away from that topic a little bit into something that is, I find, very exciting is about your decision to go overseas and to move your life onto a boat. So tell us a little bit about how you got to that point with your partner and your pets and where you are with that now.
Laura:Yeah, so it's something we've been talking about for quite a while, probably a year and a half or so. I think ultimately life ended up feeling really small and fairly constricted, and restricted. And we... We just knew we needed to shake things up in a big way. we didn't have actually a great situation as far as housing figured out. pretty much until the very end, we were in a less than ideal housing situation where our home wasn't fully remediated and I was needing to actually go in the home. I was living in an outbuilding shed. It's probably a hundred square feet without a kitchen or bathroom. So I'm needing to go in the house and, it didn't really feel like we had a great way out. We couldn't really walk away from the house. It was pretty much torn apart, and we couldn't, we couldn't really afford to rent and have the house, but not have the house rented. And we ended up just living in less than ideal, less than ideal circumstance for a really. and then on top of that, yeah, it wasn't mold free. And, we were just really needing to shake up our lives. pretty substantially. I think again, like work, work life balance, like working on the house so intensely. My partner, he was working a full time job and then every spare moment on the weekends. After work, he was working on the house. And so that went on for years and we just needed to get away. And this is, yeah, it wasn't really like working for us there. And I think, being in the shed, like that space was, was mold free and clean. And so that, that felt good on that level. and it wasn't, it wasn't sustainable. And like I said, it ultimately everything ended up feeling fairly confining and. What's the opposite of that? I think living on a sailboat and traveling and, that's yeah, it just felt like liberation to us.
Melanie Pensak:Beautiful. What considerations did you need to take to get to Europe with CIRS with your medications and supplements and animals? I'm sure there was a lot of thinking that went into that.
Laura:Totally. Yeah. And I had to start planning for that probably at least six months in advance because I didn't want. I didn't want there to be a situation where it got down to the final month and I was needing to orchestrate all of those details and as people know that have CIRS it's a lot more complicated even just traveling for a weekend if you're able to travel. And, and so yeah, there was a lot that had to go into that and probably the most complicated element was actually figuring out how to get our dog. Here, which isn't necessarily CIRS related, but it was it was a hurdle. and he's here and everything. Everything is going well in that regard, but that was a lot of a lot of heavy lifting up front. And as far as managing. Sur stuff, it was a dilemma because, at least I could imagine it would be challenging to find the same supplements, the same brands, the brands I trust abroad, and so I, I really decided, okay, I'm, I'm just going to have to prioritize packing CIRS related items and skimping on packing everything else. Essentially, I didn't pack much, other than supplements, an air filter, medications. I actually bought a Yeti backpack cooler that is really amazing in order to transport the VIP spray. And I knew I was going to have to have something super, super... heavy duty and that could perform in that regard because we were going to be moving around a lot in the beginning. so we flew into Paris with, with my dog because that's the only direct flight we could get, but then we had to jump around. A little bit. And so we were moving from Airbnb to Airbnb and I'm needing to keep everything frozen. And yeah, the cooler was definitely a requirement and, and then I packed, I asked doctors to write scripts for medications that I needed for six months and I was really on top of having all of that ready before I left. And then I packed, yeah, for four to six months worth of, yeah. Pretty much all of my supplements and from there, my plan was, people want to visit. We're going to go back at some point to visit and, I'll, I'll pay for somebody to have a check bag and, and to bring me supplements and. And we'll go from there. And I've had to, I've, since we've actually been here, I've been in, one location for a while, so I have been able to do a little bit of supplement ordering because I have an address, with brands that I feel good enough about. And so I'm, I'm trying to, to stock up even more now that I have an address with the understanding that we're going to be totally jumping around from this point forward.
Melanie Pensak:Wow, that's a lot to consider. Well done for making that happen. Were there any difficulties with getting all of those supplements in a checked bag through with the suitcase or anything?
Laura:no, I would, yeah, not, not really. Everything is pretty smooth. I will say though, So I, I didn't check the bag. I put everything in this big Yeti backpack cooler for the most part. And, and so that I had to bring through security and, and so every single time I went through security. I got searched. yeah, plan extra time if you're, if you're planning to do that and, some airports were a little bit more skeptical about some of the medications and asking questions and things like that, but in the end, it was all fine. I actually even packed a little bit of food, emergency food, because I'm on a pretty specific diet at this point. Like really needing to monitor blood sugar closely and so I, I had food that I was bringing to and so that, yeah. I think is more likely to get you flagged at an airport as well, bringing a bunch of frozen
Melanie Pensak:food. Just a little tip for people out there too, who might be traveling in the States. I'm not sure if this applies to Europe or not. I recently took a flight and contacted TSA Cares ahead of time. You can submit a online form or call the airport 48 to 72 hours in advance. And there is an ADA program. That is, available where you can tell them you have an illness and let them know that you're gonna be bringing a cooler or medications or food, and they will have somebody meet you at security that will be your support person that helps to navigate the, the people who are looking at your, your things that you're bringing through security. And it. I used this and it was a great help and just a big relief, because they took me to a separate line. They asked what I had that was related to my medical condition and I got through things pretty smoothly and pretty quickly. that is a big tip for people that are in the States to check
Laura:into too. Smart. Good way to skip the line
Melanie Pensak:too. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that was helpful. So you're on a boat and I'm curious. about the details of making sure that that living environment is safe. How did you test and, yeah, what considerations are you making for your living situation in the boat that people in the service community may find helpful?
Laura:Yeah, yeah, I have gotten so many skeptical looks and just skepticism in general, especially from doctors when I tell them my grand service healing plan is to live on a sailboat. and yeah, I think it's understandable that people would be skeptical and. This is a big experiment so I can only speak to what I know so far. I think it's possible things could shift and I'll have some surprises, but, so far what we've done is we had, we had a survey that was completed actually prior to even seeing the boat in person and he, so I FedExed a Hurts Me Too kit to him and he did the test for us and we had it back pretty quickly. and actually the boat tested a four. So that made me feel really good just about the climate here. I think it's dry enough that there aren't major issues with just mold. mold coming from human situations. so that felt good. and I will say once we got here and we started doing a deep clean of the boat, there were some issues. And I think about that in a couple of different ways. I actually managed to not freak out really at all about it because I thought, yeah, there were 4 points and that comes from somewhere. And, it made me. In some ways, a little bit more at ease, I think, with living with small, small amounts of mold, okay, I actually, we can, we can have a hurts me to score that's within safe limits without having a totally pristine, perfect environment, all that to say, we want to eliminate everything that he can and yeah, be as cautious as possible. And I think it was sort of like, okay, like I actually, I know what level of mold was in the boat. And I also know what the score was and that that's typically a safe level for, for people. And so in some ways I was comforting. and yeah, I'll say probably a couple issues is that, A, you're on the water and so there's a lot more opportunity for water intrusion, obviously, and, and then B, presumably a lot of the time, there's a higher level of humidity, although in Greece, at least in the summertime, it's, it's not incredibly humid, although in the winter, that's a little bit different, but, again, it was comforting that, okay, in the Mediterranean, it seems like it's, It's not a death sentence in that regard. and, and yeah, I guess I'll share just like some of the places that we, we found mold, which is under a mattress. I think that's a really obvious place that, that boats are just notoriously known for having issues with mold under the mattress. And so the first thing we did was throw out the mattress. We took out the plywood. That the mattress was resting on. We sanded it down completely, did a small particle clean. I mean, I'm thankful that we have all the skills to do small, small particle cleans, or we developed those prior to coming. and so I think we felt fairly confident about attacking that issue. And then we purchased a latex, 100 percent latex mattress, which are really mold resistant. I'm feeling fairly confident about that. other areas are just so one area was like curtains, for instance, I think it would make sense that there's like maybe some air getting trapped behind there and some moisture. and so I replaced all the curtains and, I think I'm just going to do a really great job of laundering them. my assumption is that the, the curtains and boats never get laundered. So that's something to think about. but then other than that, it's, it's just like typical things. you might want to think about your hatches and some of the, the gaskets that are lining the hatches. Obviously, if there's water intrusion, you need to take care of that. But in some ways, I actually feel. More confident about the boat than I do just a standard home because the boat is actually designed to take on water and be okay. And so it's like you spill, for instance, at home, if I would spill a giant cup of water on the floor, I might have a mini freak out. and oh my gosh, did it get like in the. along the wall and the cracks. Is it under there? Can it dry out? I've had that situation happen and it's a little, it's a little freaky, especially when you're still like really in the thick of your symptoms. but boats actually, so it's all like fiber glass and you can pull up the floor boards and. It's, it's basically meant to take on water and it's, it's, it's going to drain into the bilge and like worst case scenario, you have to use a bilge, the bilge pump and you get rid of the water that way. But as far as just like the bones of the boat, if there is like some sort of water event, I feel pretty good about that. It's like the small things like beds and. Maybe like in your kitchen, it's like basic things that you think about in your home is the caulking around the countertops. Is that, is that solid, or not? yeah, I think there's, there's a few extra considerations and I'll probably have an update to that once, once we're further along in this process, but in some ways I feel, yeah, even, even better about. This Boats Resilience in our regard.
Melanie Pensak:Wow, that's amazing. All of those tips and well done for not having a freak out about finding them and just navigating all of the things that come up along the way. I feel like I've learned that too. Now, dealing with this for over a year, you just become. More resilient when these things come up and your experience and then, there's an element of vigilance that needs to continue. there's realistically, no matter, even if you move into a clean environment, you're going to have to keep up with it and keep. An eye on all of those places that could leak. And that's all really great advice for people and so interesting and fascinating.
Laura:Yeah, yeah, totally. And yeah, I feel, I feel grateful though, for this, like this element of learning of just how to care for home so that you, yeah, you don't have water damage and you don't have mold. It's whether or not I would. Be sick. I want to know that. and it's crazy to me how little thought I used to put into it. And yeah, I feel very. Very happy to continue making those considerations into the future. I
Melanie Pensak:find it empowering too. I have never really thought about being a homeowner and what it takes to really keep like a healthy home and the more that I learned about. Things like plumbing and how to turn the water off. Like these are things I just always took for granted. Someone else always took care of. I've never really thought about it. And now that I know a little bit more about it, it feels good. It feels empowering to know this knowledge. Totally agree. that was all really wonderful. I'd like to close out our time together with just some questions around CIRS in general and I'm curious, what do you wish people in the world knew about CIRS?
Laura:Yeah, I think the first thing that comes to mind is just that they knew what CIRS was. I certainly didn't know what it was. I think, yeah, that they, they knew what it was. They knew that it was a real legitimate diagnosis. And maybe that they understood a little bit about the complexity of like symptom presentation, because I think for a lot of people. Like family members and friends and even doctors, it can be really confusing when it feels like you have every symptom under the sun. It's oh, it's a multi. Symptom multi system illness, right? And, I think it's really easy for search people to get, yeah, placed in this category of, yeah, maybe there's somaticizing or they're making it up or they're hypochondriac, they're dramatic, whatever. so I think just understanding some of the science of how, how it impacts our bodies that. It is going to present in really different ways from person to person, and it's, it's probably going to involve a lot of diverse symptoms in different systems. But yeah, I think more than anything still just that it, it's a diagnosis that it's real, just an autoimmune diagnosis or diabetes or cancer, anything like that. Thank you.
Melanie Pensak:If you could have one magic wish granted, what would you want to happen within the service community right now? Thank you.
Laura:Yeah, I think this really connects to my last answer just for the diagnosis to be legitimized to a point where it was. On the same, yeah, like in the same realm as not immune diagnosis or cancer or anything else. I think it's really easy to invalidate and minimize what we're going through and it's really, yeah, it's really hard to understand. So I think, yeah, I think it really is connected to my last answer. Just bringing more legitimacy to it and. Yeah. I would love for there to be a day where it's like, Oh yeah, CIRS. Like I, I know what that is. And, it's real and it's real in the same way that cancer is real. And
Melanie Pensak:the last question I have for you is what keeps you hopeful day to day as you continue to recover and, go through your journey?
Laura:Yeah. Probably the biggest thing is just. Really reflecting on how bad the situation was. And I mean that just in the sense of being able to validate why my body was struggling to the degree that it was. It's okay, you are in an incredibly toxic situation where The water damage was so severe and the mold was so bad where that there were tree roots growing out from the like your floor. It's like it just mold blanketing the walls. It's I think it like really validating. It makes sense that you got this sick. And there was an external input again that I can validate. And And I know that I'm no longer in that situation. So it's like I've, I've come into a place where I've removed barriers to healing. And so it's yes, it was, it was a really terrible situation. Yes, it would make sense. I would be that sick and this isn't happening for no reason. And, and therefore there's, it actually makes sense that you have space to heal now. I think that's the biggest thing. just, just validating that. It was bad, so it makes sense, your symptoms. We're bad as well.
Melanie Pensak:Thank you so much for sharing all of this information, Laura, and congratulations on with moving and making your wishes into a reality. I think that's really inspiring for a lot of people to hear. I know I feel inspired by your story and really for continuing to find answers. when you were not sure what was going on and, thanks for sharing your heart with everybody today and these personal stories and experiences, really wishing you an amazing time and on your boat. And I look forward to hearing updates on how things are going for you.
Laura:Yeah. Thank you so much. Yeah, it will be. An adventure and yeah, a grand experiment, but I'm looking forward to it and thanks for thanks for having me on. I hope this conversation was helpful to at least 1 person.
Melanie Pensak:I'm sure it will be. Thank you so much. Thank you for listening and for your kind attention. To keep in touch, follow the Heart of CIRS podcast on Instagram. You can visit melaniepensak. com forward slash the heart of CIRS to donate. Your generosity helps to keep this podcast growing. May the awareness of CIRS spread far and wide, helping to change millions of lives for the better.
Bing.